Overcoming Trauma And Finding Healing During The Holidays - With Kate Conwell

Ep #49 For most, the holiday season is filled with joy and happiness. But for others, it may be associated with negative memories such as tragedy, grief, and loss. This episode, we’re diving into how to deal with negative emotions and find healing despite hardships.

The healing journey is a process that consists of actions you take to let go. Kate explains how to embrace things that empower you. The paths you take after the trauma, the goals you set to keep moving forward, and life experiences that you create during the journey — their impact is part of the process of healing.

Kate Conwell is the founder of the Journey Beyond Betrayal—an online membership community that exists to ENCOURAGE, EDUCATE, EQUIP and EMPOWER women as they walk through the pain of marital infidelity and find healing.  Kate launched the community out of her own story of overcoming the pain of infidelity five years into marriage—turning her deepest pain into a God given purpose.  Kate’s husband also pursued his own healing, and through God’s redeeming power they have now been married for 15 years!  Together they have two energetic and athletic boys—who she cheers on at whatever sporting event the season brings!

To learn more about the Journey Beyond Betrayal Community and get 5 Tips to Move from Hurting to Hope visit: https://www.journeybeyondbetrayal.com/FREEBIE

Website: https://www.journeybeyondbetrayal.com 

Instagram: @journeybeyondbetrayal

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/journeybeyondbetrayal/

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Transcript

Jenn: Welcome Kate to the show. 

Kate: Hey Jen. Thanks so much for having me. Good to be here. 

Jenn: Thank you for saying yes to being on the podcast today. It's going to be a little bit of a different podcast in which we're talking about our mental health during the holidays and. Sometimes the holidays is not always a cheerful time for people, and I really wanted you to share your story because you have such an amazing story and how you're helping other women navigate through their process as well. So tell us more about that story and what you're doing to help people. 

Kate: Yeah, so I have been married for 15 years now, but five years into our marriage picked up my husband's phone one day and saw some   very sexually explicit text messages and basically discovered that he had been engaging in this kind of sex, I guess, sexting, with people. And then kind of had this disclosure process, over the next couple of days or weeks, of   learning that he had. Been addicted to pornography and essentially had engaged in a sexual relationship with somebody on two separate occasions while we were married, and then also a different woman when we were engaged.

And so that was   the biggest blow and obviously not what I expected when I was picking up his phone that day and essentially the worst pain I've experienced in my life and, and then had to navigate through that. And we were blessed to make it through. I pursued my own healing. He pursued his own healing, and we pursued our healing for our marriage when we decided that's what we wanted, and now I am helping other women pursue healing in that same sort of painful situation of infidelity. 

Jenn: So walk us through the process of when you were going through your healing process. What did that look  ? 

Kate: Yeah, so for me it was October 2012 when I discovered this. And at that point we had a one-year-old, we had just moved to the n back to the northwest and were managing some apartments together. And for the first time in my life I was just  , Nope, I can't do any of this . I  , I essentially the responsibility onto him of, of the, the managing of the apartments and I took my son or our son, back to where we had been living in Alabama to so that I could just be surround,   surrounded by people that would, would help me take care of him and take care of myself, so that I could actually. Heal. So, I had the opportunity, which I now having walked alongside of other people, it's not,   , not everybody has the same  , opportunity to basically, essentially stop their life for a couple of weeks.

But that really allowed me to kind of not escalate, but   move through the healing, I think pretty quickly because for two weeks I essentially was able to just   sit and feel what, what I was feeling and, and. wrestle with the emotions, cry, pray, do whatever I needed to. And after that two weeks, I was kind of, I was ready to start healing.

I had ordered some books. I ordered, I, I read so many books along the way, and I was connected with   a another woman who kind of counseled me. Through, through my healing process and I tried to find a group that   what I, what I'm doing right now and the group that I joined just wasn't really a good fit for me.

And there essentially wasn't a lot of options at that point.   I tried the one group, there wasn't really anything else, and so I just, as I was essentially. Alone navigating it. Besides that, I, I had a counselor to help me, so I wasn't alone alone, but  , I didn't have people   walking beside me that knew what I  .

The people knew what I was going through and they were supportive, but   nobody that had experienced it before. And to me there's   power in, in being in community with other people that understand and so, I just was   reading books,   learning whatever I could to try to help myself because I knew that I had experienced the worst pain I had ever l   walked through.

And still, it's the worst thing I've ever walked through in my life and I knew I didn't want to stay in that hurt state.   it's, painful.And you have to deal with it. You. Just say, okay, I'm not going to deal with this. Or, I mean, I'm, I'm going to be healed.   there's a process.

And so my process was really just  ,   reading books and learning from books, essentially   what I needed to do. And then also having the help of a counselor. I find it so brave of you to tell this story because it feels   you're reliving it all over again and I'm just speaking of how I'm perceiving it. But when, because you have to be in that state to help other people too, to remember what it was   when you first learned about the situation. .and then healing process, and then now teaching other women. This is how you navigate through the process and let yourself feel those emotions.

Jenn: I had a podcast previously with a grief coach and she said, grief just wants to be seen. And that was so powerful to me because,   , I haven't gone through what you went through, but in this season, it's not a happy season for many of us because we're remembering our loved ones who passed away during this time.

And sometimes it’s easier to just suppress those emotions and to just carry on   nothing has happened or to be happy all the time. But I love the part of your story where you said you surrounded yourself with other people and then your own isolation to just deal with those emotions.

Kate: That was a huge blessing, I think, to be able to experience my emotions. I was trying to find this quote of a, in the book we're reading inside of my community, that kind of addresses what you're saying. That   just we put out, when you’re when you're walking through this, you. In the, in the beginning, you can't ignore the feelings.

  they're just overwhelming and, and that, that's essentially   you're, you're in your feelings and it's so hard to not deal with them  , or to, I mean, to, to ignore them because they're just   overwhelming, but, And I actually got to sit in that,   , I didn't have to   go to work and figure out how to  , put it in a box, but, but most people have to fig  , how do I go about my day?

And they put, you can put it in a box, you can put that situation in a box. The longer you do that, the longer you or   , the more often you'll do that. Then essentially, it's  , it's in this box and you just can think  , oh, well it's in there and I'm just going to ignore it. But really the recovery, the quote that I was looking for, it's   recovery comes when we can.

Understand how to, how to   deal with the box. I can't find it, but   , face the pain and, and   move through it. And that, that's what recovery's all about. So I think that's part of why my recovery process is a lot quicker than, than most people's because essentially I could just sit there for two weeks and, and.

Feel the, the feelings. And then I was  , okay, now I'm going to move forward. But I didn't have to put it in a box   I could just d deal with it. So that was a huge blessing,, and that I had other people that,   , essentially, even though they didn't   know infidelity, that they were just willing to  , take care of my son and I, and, and   you said, you said   ,   I'm telling the story again and I've told the story so many times, but, the way,  , I remember a specific moment,   when I, we've been open with our story because that, that helps other people.

But when I was telling the story to someone and  , instead of crying when I was talking about all the pain I had experienced and, and the hurt that, that, that infidelity had caused, I started, I was, I teared. When I was talking about the people that walked beside me, and then  , I, I remember it hitting me   after I was young and I was  , oh my gosh, I  , the only part I cried at was   that part,   this is heal, this is healing.

  this is, this is the other side because now I'm grateful for the people and not them, the story isn't about, I mean, it's about my story and what I've experienced, but   now I've healed. The gratefulness that I've had, that I had for those people instead of just the pain. And that was a, that was a turning point I think for me.

Jenn: I remember in church, it was probably about a month ago, and the pastor was saying that over the past three years since Covid, there have been so many marriages that have gone through. So much turmoil and just this need for counselors and people to just love on other people. And I'm sure it has happened way before the pandemic as well, but even more so now, because there's so many factors that come into play and. .   , on this podcast we always talk about mindset with money. .and money is one of the things that can really hurt a marriage, especially people are not on the same page for a second, can you talk to that woman who's listening to this podcast? What would you tell her if she's currently going through a situation  , I, I would just tell her that she, she's not alone.

Kate: It, it can feel   you're alone, but you're not. There are millions of women that,, that are walking through that same pain. And, also that you're stronger than you think you are. And, and strength can look in, look all sorts of ways. It can look   resting when you need to, and it can look  ,   , persevering when you need to, but you  , you have the strength to, to get through this and, recovery is possible there.

My story is a testament to that,   if you are willing to. To do the, the work and, and sit in that pain and, and process through it   you will find recovery. And I would say if you need, if you need help with that,   that's what the Journey Beyond Betrayal community is. It, it's a community of women who are navigating infidelity together.

We, we remind each other that we are, we can do this and we process through our feelings and we walk alongside each other so that you aren't.as you're doing the work that, that comes with the recovery process. And you, earlier you said something so important. It was   you had a group of people who surrounded you and loved on you, but didn't walk the same journey as you.

Jenn:  And it's a different experience for someone to, to say, this is what I'm feeling, and not have the recipient know exactly what you're feeling. , yeah. I, I remember   going through breakups and other people kind of knew what I was going through, but not really. And so .talking about it over and over again, just kind of irritated them. Cause you're  , just get over it, but sometimes you can't just get over it. . , it's not something that you can just turn over a new leaf and start over. . . , so how I dealt with it was, . I was  , I'm going to have a new look for me. I'm going to go cut off all my hair and . , get a new wardrobe and make myself happy because nobody understands me.

Did you ever go through a similar experience? , I think the difference, a little bit difference between just   a normal breakup and then infidelity is   the traa that you're, you're walking through. And so I know there are people that definitely it. Oh,   , screw him.  , I'm going to go, go do this.

Kate: For me,   I couldn't take care of myself.   I couldn't, I, I didn't even have the energy to do those kind of things initially.  , and, and I had a one-year-old, so that was . Any energy I had was  , spent on him. So I actually   neglected a lot of those things that   people. People will go  , oh, I'm going to go shopping, or I'm going to go because I just felt   crappy.

And, and so,, I mean an encouragement I  , one thing I encourage women to do is  , find something that you do find joy in and do that for yourself because,, you need, you need to be able to, to, to figure out  , what is it that brings me joy and. Maybe that is,   , maybe that is going and getting your haircut.

Maybe it is,   , it doesn't have to be anything. It can be a walk. You can go on a walk.   it's different for everybody. But,   , you have to figure out ways so that you do feel good about yourself because you can feel so bad about yourself and you can feel so bad about your life and your situation that I ended up just   neglecting a lot of the general self-carethat comes,   , and, and Dennis, I was at the dentist yesterday and I was.

Oh yeah,   right after,   I came out of that scenario, with a root canal,  ,   that because I just had, I didn't go to the dentist for   two years and, and   , part of that was having a baby and part of that was then,   , I had a one-year-old and then dealt with infidelity and then had another baby.

And it was just   all this stuff. And you, I, I tend to   neglect myself rather than, maybe. Indulge myself in things, but I do think it's really important to find the things that you can do that do make you feel good about yourself. If that's a new haircut, then then that's a new haircut. And go to the dentist.

Don't skip your dentist appointments. Yeah, for sure. . I hate going to the dentist. I really do. Even if it's   for a 30 minute cleaning . I'm just, when is it over? And I didn't hate the dentist before that,  , because I didn't have any major problems. But then I neglected my dental hygiene for, for too long and I was brushing my teeth.

But   now, I'm   constant stress at the dentist and I used to think of it  , oh, I just get to go lay there.   when do I ever just get to lay down in a chair for an hour ? And now I'm  , please let this be over.   ? It's   I don't, my teeth don't   it. Yeah. I think it's just  , okay, for 30 minutes I have to sit here, go 30, 45 minutes.

I have to   sit here when I could be doing something else and I can't be looking at my phone kinda thing. . Getting off topic. Sorry. Yeah. . It's ok. Yeah. Yeah. The back.  , yeah. Find something. Make sure you maintain your self-care and then your, your essential self-care. And then also my recommendation to people is  , find something you can do also, where you can kind of just check out from it for a minute,   in a way that you feel good about yourself,   go for a walk.

By yourself, that,, cup of co  ,   , the thing you,   , splurge on something if you need to., but it's important to remind yourself that you are worth it and you have value. So that is such an important point. And , you mentioned earlier that there's   a 13 month calendar where you go through, This process with every celebration or every holiday or every major event.

Jenn: Talk more about that. I don't know where I heard about that. Someone was telling me as part of the grieving process, there was a program that,  , essentially they walk you their, their program is 13 months long because. You'll hit every major milestone in that period.   ev, there'll be a Christmas, there'll be a birthday, there'll be an anniversary.

All of those things that when you hit them for the first time, it's  , oh, this is the first time that I have experienced Christmas, knowing that my husband was on Faithful. This is the,   , those kind of things. And every. And, and, and it's, it's hard because you're trying to figure out, now what does it,   now how do I navigate this holiday?

And when you're  , I mean, our first C Christmas we had, well, Thanksgiving was   the first holiday that we essentially hit, and it was,   , it's  , how do we do this?   we were at that point. We, we were in the same state again. And, we just had,   , how, what is this going to look   with our family?

 , now that our families know about this and trying to figure that out. And for us,   the first year was  , everything looked a little bit different then maybe it did the second year. And so it's, it's   depending on with, with, with the grief, with   the loss of a loved one,   , it's   it's the first time you do anything.

Without them. And then the next year they're also not there for us. It was   the first year we were, we were  , some of those milestones. It was  , we are still in the healing process. So then it was, and then we came around to the second year and it's  , okay, now we, we were, we had committed to being married, and so it was  , but we're still okay now.

This is kind, that was kind of  , the first year again for us was  , okay, what is, what does Christmas look  ? Oh, this is the first Christmas since. I learned about this,   , and, and this is the second,  , now that we are together, this is the, this is the first Christmas of our new marriage.

  , that kind of, that kind of stuff. And it, you have to figure that out for yourself. And, but understanding that it is going to come,  , and, and then those reminders are going to come for more women who have experience infidelity. It's often the anniversary of  , when they found out. , and so for me that,   , was October and it, it was   every October.

And I. I knew   exactly the date for me,  , because it's also, it was my cousin's birthday and we had, the day that I found out that he had had sex with someone else was the day we were supposed to be celebrating my, my cousin who had passed away his birthday. And so it was   kind of this mixture, it's   two different anniversaries kind of come on that day for me so that, that,   , it takes some time and for me at least, the more I've, and now it's 10 years out, and so it's   I've, I've worked through recovery and healing and, and I don't, I don't necessarily have those same thoughts at all.  , I don't, this Christmas, I'm not  , oh no, what are we going to,   , because we've, we've healed and recovered and it's been 10 years and, and it's not   time heals all wounds, but time and work with this, with this situation, you can go through those holidays a little bit different then. That's, that's the difference I think between   grief, loss of a loved one and grief with, with this situation because when   our marriage has been restored,   you can't restore someone you've lost, but, but our marriage has been restored, so now we get to have Christmas.   , however we choose to, and I'm not, I'm not thinking about it now that it's 10 years later and we're still together. 

Jenn: Yeah. That's so good. So happy to hear that you are still with your husband and . , you guys have a great marriage. Did you find it more healing, to give yourself grace or to give the other person grace?

Kate: Oh, that's a great question. . , I think they come at   different points in the process, and they both have   a huge healing component in different, different ways. , I think at first you have to give yourself a lot of grace,, because you're just, for me at least,   I wasn't capable of all the things that I had been capable of. I couldn't.  , I'm just  , I'm   you.  , oh, I've gotta do. And, and   my word is my bond.   ? if I'm going to do, so if I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. And   that kind of mental  , that was the first time in my life where I was  , Nope.  , sorry, responsibilities,   goodbye.

 , I can't do any of this. And, I was lucky that I could, could kind, that, I could do that, with the responsibilities that I had. But essentially, yeah, it, it was just kind of   you have, I had to give myself a lot of grace initially, and then as I worked through the process and kind of started working on my own recovery and had found,   , kind of found some ground there and  , Started seeing   what was the normal piece of the process and how does this work and what do I need to do to heal myself?

Part of that process was also then giving grace to my husband and, and honestly   whether you stay married, I still think forgiveness. Everything that I've read is   forgiveness has to be a part of the process. Because it's not for them, it's for you because that quote: Forgiveness or unforgiveness is drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

That's, that's essentially what forgiveness is about. It's you have to forgive for yourself so that you, it's part of your healing process. So it's eventually I gave grace to my husband, but came months down the road. As I learned too, a huge part of my journey was  just education.

Jow did this happen? Why did this happen? And not just how could you do this to me? That's where you're at in the beginning, but literally how, what in his past, what it, what in his story, what made this possible? And, and, and so I learned a lot about that.

How can men do this? There are books on that that I read too how, how this actually happens. And I don't know that I could ever really under, I was just talking to someone I don't know that I could ever really under, I don't, I read about it and learned about it and I can say, okay, that's how this happens.

But then to be really, how did you do this to me?   I don't know if you can ever really understand that piece of it can happen, does that make, does that make sense?   even my husband the other day, he was , yeah, I don't understand how I did that. I could not do that now. I don't understand how I did that to you so there's, there's grace, both of those things are pivotal. They just come at different times. . . Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. , and replaying that story. Why did this happen and what could I have done? .to prevent it from Oh, yeah, yeah.

And so forth. Those stories, when we narrate, when we narrate those stories in our head, that can have a negative impact, right?

Those are things that are they're not good, that are bad. They're neutral. They are. Facts, essentially they can be proven. , so those are the circumstances, but those circumstances then lead your thoughts are, you have thoughts about those circumstances, and those thoughts then lead to your feelings about those circstances.

And then you can have, they impact those, that your feelings and your thoughts impact your actions and essentially, ultimately the results. And so the way that, that, this is important, I think for people navigating infidelity is   just looking. What is the circumstance? Because your mind can spiral out of control and, this, this, this model and this co way of coaching it, it's, it, it, it will, it won't work   immediately when you, it's not for the first   month or so of when you're   just really in the feelings.

But as you start your healing process, it can be really helpful to kind of understand what the circumstances are, what are the facts. Our mind thinks things are facts that are not facts, and when you have to sit down and write that process out. And then what are your, what are your thoughts about those circumstance?

 The circumstances your husband had an an affair. , now what are your thoughts about that?  , let's separate. The thoughts from the, the circumstance and then what are your feelings? And then, you can look at   what kind of actions and results those are leading to. But I think the, the top of that coaching model is really what's important, when you're, when you first start to use it in healing from infidelity.

Because our thoughts, feelings, and circumstances can all get kind of we can, we develop different ways to handle our thoughts and feelings that aren't necessarily healthy. And so you may ignore your thoughts and feelings. You may be overwhelmed by them. You   push them away. They impact your life, but you don't realize it.

And so it's a way to kind of look at that and acknowledge your feelings, because that's an important part of the healing process is   acknowledging your thoughts and feelings, acknowledging your circumstances. Understanding the difference between those and. And then, and then figuring out how, what kind of actions and results do I want here?

And, I mean, you can use this coaching model in, in   all different ways and there's different ways that I will, would use it depending on where someone is at in their healing journey. But, I think what's most powerful for someone at the beginning is, Just being able to, to, to identify their thoughts versus their feelings, and then also just the facts of their circumstances.

Because your mind, you feel   you're losing your mind and your thoughts kind of just spiral. And it’s, okay, let's take you back to what is, what is the facts, what is the circumstances? And then what are your thoughts and feelings? And then when you, when you begin to process that, and then you can start to look at, as you continue to heal, what kind of actions are these?

Is this causing, and then what kind of results? And then you can work on essentially changing the pieces of the puzzle that need, need to be worked on so that you can get the result that you want, which ultimately is healing. But it's, this coaching model is, is essentially just yeah.

It's a lot of mindsets at the beginning to understand, Where you're at, and then you kind of can progress through the model as you progress through your healing process. I love that. And it's the scripture is second for Indians, 10, five, right? To take every captive, take captive every thought and make it to Christ and yeah. I love that. Coaching women through a Christian perspective and you said something powerful earlier. Maybe you're coaching women that decided not to stay in the marriage or for one reason or another, maybe the other person didn't want to stay in the marriage. 

And so could you talk a little bit about that and how you helped women navigate through that is a different type of process. . . Yeah. And I think that essentially that idea came. The way I handled it,, handled my own situation. Now, I, I am still married, but when I, when I decided to pursue my healing, it wasn't   I'm going to pursue healing for my marriage my first choice, was I realized I'm broken.

I've been through and I need and I'm going to do what I need to do so that I can heal because I'm going to be with me for the rest of my life. And no matter if I'm married to my husband or I, or I'm, I get divorced, and I'm married to someone else.   I want to be healed and I want to be whole again.

And I know that I'm not right now. So what do I need to do to, to make that? And the reason that I focus on just because you have that choice you feel choice has been taken away because you didn't choose for your husband to do this.

You would never have chosen this. And so you, you, you kind of start to feel   I've lost my ability to choose.   I don't get to choose if how this, how this unfolds. I don't get to choose all these things. But you do get to choose. How you heal and, and if, if you want to pursue that. And so that's what I wanted to offer women was the opportunity to ch make the choice for themselves because they do have control of that.

And you, when you feel   you don't have control, Of so many things. You do have control of your healing and you do get to make that choice. , and that's how I operated in my own healing journey, was choosing for myself that I wanted to pursue healing for me. And then my husband also chose, he wanted to pursue healing and, and he chose immediately that he wanted to be married to me.

Still. That was, it was, it was my choice then if I wanted to. But that's not every woman's story. Husband wants to stay married, and so you don't get to choose that you, but you still need to be healed whether or not you're going to stay married. , this is a devastating experience that  , pretty much shatters you and, and to put the pieces back together.

You. It, it, it's a process, but you get to choose that. And, and it needs to, I mean, I think it needs to happen regardless of if you stay married or not. And so that's why I focus just on the, the woman's side because, because that's what we have the power to, to do. We don't have the power to force somebody else to make a decision or to force them to pursue healing or force them to stay married.

We don't get to control people in that way, nor do ultimately you realize, nor do you want to. , but you, you do get to pursue yours  ,   , healing for yourself. And so that's what I think is so powerful about what we do. It's irrelevant of marriage and women will, will come in and right now the members, they're not sure, they're not sure what choice they're making for their marriage.

And that's where I was too. It was.  I don't know what I'm going to do. But I know that I need to be healed and I, and through that process, I'll decide. Right? And, and that's what happens.  and there's lots of, there's lots of resources out there that walk alongside marriages,   , restoring marriages and there's, there's resources for that.

And there are other resources besides the journey beyond betray for women. But, a lot, I just wanted women to be able to make the choice to pursue their own healing regardless of their marital status and not feel  , oh, well it's,   , it's, I'm not married anymore. Or maybe they're already divorced.

It doesn't matter. If you haven't addressed this. I want you, I want to help you do that because you're going to be, you're going to carry this with you if you don't address it. Even if you don't realize that you're addressing it, you, you, it's, it's still in that box. Have you, have you dealt with the box or not? And you said something very powerful earlier. You said, I'm going to be with me forever. . . And I was whoa. That's such a great point.   This is why we need to heal ourselves and we need to do the work on healing ourselves because yes, we're going to be with ourselves forever.

And then the thoughts that we're telling ourselves 24 7. .is worse than the thoughts that people are talking about us. Right? We're so negative We're still self-critical of ourselves. And, and going through the self-coaching model, I think that is just so powerful. I mean, we were not made to be put on this earth to be isolated and to be by ourselves.

So we to surround ourselves with people who encourage us and understand what we're going through. And, I think that's just such a powerful thing and it's so great what you're doing to help other women make that choice. I'm not saying that you have to stay in marriage. I'm not saying that you have to get out of marriage, but let's work on you first.

Let's heal, go through the healing process of getting you to where you need to be to make a great decision. . . Yeah. I mean, and, and it's interesting you said that. One piece of advice I would give people too, I guess back to your, your, one of your first questions was  , don't make any major ma life decisions right now. I was actually reading that also in, in, it's always nice when you, you have a thought and then get confirmation that someone. There's a professional person saying it to in a book somewhere. Oh good, I'm on track you shouldn't make any major life decisions.

And that includes your marriage.   When you're, when you're deep in your feelings, when you first find out,   you, of course you're  , I hate you, I want you dead. And I never,  I never wanna see you again. , or at least, let me just say maybe not. Of course. That's just how, that's how I felt   I was plotting his murder.

It’s not the time to make any major decisions when you're, when you're mentally in a healthy place.   that's never, whether it's infidelity, loss of a loved one or any other major in your life.   That’s not necessarily a great time to make life impacting decisions and so because you just need to get yourself to a more stable, emotional place and then you can make that decision and that's advice I would give to some, anyone navigating a situation, you don't have to make these decisions immediately. You can get your work on healing and then make the choice. 

Jenn: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, as you were talking, I was just thinking back of difficult times that I went through was so emotional, throwing things out the window, flushing things down to toilet. And then looking back, Why did I do that? It’s so emotional, but you're right. We just have to get our emotions back to a place where we can make an informed decision versus making an emotional decision that's going to be life changing. Yeah. Well, I really enjoy talking to you today and I know you're going to help so many women out there, the woman listening to this podcast and we are going through a traumatic experience and just need somebody to hold your hand and walk you through that journey. Someone who has been there and has really had a lot of experience, a lot of time has passed since this first happened, so it's not   it just happened yesterday, but if there is that woman out there that is looking to just get. 

Kate: Where can they find you? You can find me online at journeybeyondbetrayal.com, and you can find me on Instagram at the same place at Journey Beyond Betrayal. And our, I mean, the community is there to encourage, educate, equip, and empower women as they walk through the pain of infidelity and find healing. And so if that is you, then I would love to have you inside of the community because. It's a community and we need each other to get through it. I don't want anyone to walk through this alone.

I want you to have the support you need, and I would love to have you inside the community if you need help healing from infidelity. So yeah, journey beyond betrayal.com and on Instagram and Facebook journey beyond Betrayal. Awesome. And before we go, do you have a scripture that you can share with these women? To meditate upon in, in the next, few days. So the scripture I'm going to share is out of Psalms 1 47 and Psalms 1 47, 2 through, let's see, five. So it says, the Lord is rebuilding Jerusalem and bringing the exiles back to. He heals the brokenhearted and bandages their wounds. He counts the stars and calls them by name.

How great is our Lord? His power is absolute. His understanding is beyond comprehension. And so, the reason I shared that with most, with 1 47 3, he heals the brokenhearted and bandages their wounds. And that just speaks to, I think what we've been talking, what I, what I hope to, to help women with. I. A friend sharing with me the idea that your heart is shattered, but that God is going to put it back together. The mosaics where there's the pieces, but it makes this beautiful picture, and that God will take your broken heart and he's going to make something beautiful out of it. And you can't necessarily see that right now. But in verse I, it says, how great is our Lord? His power is absolute. His understanding is beyond comprehension. And so even though we cannot comprehend, What that picture of your heart looks   when it's been put back together, God knows what that picture is, and he is, he is the one that has the power to, to do that for you. So that is what I wanted to share from that verse.

Jenn: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. So thank you so much for being on the podcast today, and I'll definitely leave those links in the show notes for women to check out your website and your social media.